Ep. 2 - Making space for imperfection in activist spaces (w/ Mazin Jamal)

Transcript

[00:00:00] Intro

Mazin Jamal: So how can we create such rich belonging, that there's room to challenge each other without fearing that we're going to be kicked out of the group? Like that's, I think, the best relationships I have where it's like, our relationship is too strong for the truth to challenge it.

So the truth is not unsafe.

Jeremy Blanchard: Welcome to the Wider Roots podcast. A show about how we can use the power of coaching and personal transformation to help create the world we most want to live in.

I'm your host, Jeremy Blanchard. And today's episode is with my friend and collaborator Mazin Jamal. He's the co-founder of holistic underground, which does many things. Including consulting with organizations around justice, equity, diversity, and inclusion. He's also a community builder, a musician and a coach.

And I love to have this conversation with Mazin because we got to talk about what do we do as coaches and facilitators to stay grounded ourselves when we're in conversations about race and equity, when things start to get really heated.

And we also talked about the important role that coaches play in helping people find their unique role in movement work and social change work.

If you want more resources about personal and systemic transformation, you can head over to WiderRoots.com to join our newsletter.

All right. Let's dive in.

[00:01:33] Mazin's JEDI origin story

Jeremy Blanchard: Hey Mazin, welcome to the show.

Mazin Jamal: Hey, great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Jeremy Blanchard: Can you introduce yourself for folks listening?

Mazin Jamal: Yeah. Hey, everyone. My name is Mazin Jamal. Really excited to be here speaking to you all through the interwebs. Um, like many other people, I'm sure I'll be on this podcast. I got a lot of hyphens, but, um, I really see myself as someone who is here to support people who are creating change, people who are innovating around spirituality, social change, culture, community, art, to do what they're doing in a way that's sustainable, to be able to thrive in their health, to be able to prosper in their finances, deepen their impact.

So I do that in a couple ways. I do that coaching, love coaching too. Um, and it's also evolved that I'm bringing that coaching mindset to, uh, an organization. I'm a few. So I have a fiscal sponsorship business, you know, it's a nonprofit that helps other nonprofits do their thing and we handle the back end.

Um, I work a lot with changemakers, spiritual innovators of color, particularly, um, activists kind of around the world, coaching, consulting, tactical support. And I've done a lot of consulting too, doing a little less of that now, but around justice equity, uh, diversity and inclusion, culture. And I'm a musician, so those are kind of the main, main hats, you know.

Jeremy Blanchard: The joy you say, uh, and I'm a musician. with,

Mazin Jamal: Yeah.

Jeremy Blanchard: Brings me a lot of joy. Yeah, that's

Mazin Jamal: Thank you. Yeah.

Jeremy Blanchard: Cool.

Mazin Jamal: hmm.

Jeremy Blanchard: Yeah. And we've gotten to, uh, be on this journey together for a long time now. Many, many years, I don't know, eight, nine years maybe. And, uh, you know, we've had many different ways that we've gotten to, uh, support one another.

You know, I was, was your trainer and mentor, and then you were my trainer and mentor, and we've been, you know, colleagues, co-conspirators, so many different roles we've gotten to play. Um, You.

Mazin Jamal: Jeremy changed my life. Let me just put it very simply. Maybe I changed your life too, but You you changed my life

Jeremy Blanchard: You did.

Mazin Jamal: Uh, I want to, I want to just share like. Um, I was like, Oh, I want to become a coach and a coach training or whatever. And I was like $300 short. It was so like, oh, I just couldn't afford the training.

You're like, all right, I'm sending you, $300 right now. What's your PayPal? Like, you were just like, you are taking this, this training, like you, you know, I just, you believed me. And then you like basically gave me like three months of free coaching with that crowdfund. So. Yeah, I just want to, I testify this man is helping us.

Jeremy Blanchard: Oh,

well, well,

Mazin Jamal: many of my friends, partners to like, yeah.

Jeremy Blanchard: Yeah, yeah.

Well, thank you. Yeah it's been a, it's been a joy. And, uh, thank you too, because this podcast wouldn't be here if it weren't for you. Uh, it was, uh, a year and a half ago, we were on the phone and, uh, uh, I was talking about how I wanted to explore these topics at the intersection of coaching, personal transformation, systemic transformation, and, uh, you were like, why don't you start a podcast? So, a year and a half later, here we are. So, thank you for that.

Mazin Jamal: I'm glad to be here, man. This is, this is an honor.

Yeah.

Jeremy Blanchard: So, um, let's get into it. I'm curious about your approach to, JEDI stuff, justice, equity, diversity, and inclusion, your coaching, your consulting in that regard. Um, one of the reasons I was so grateful to get to learn from you for that year-long program that I did of yours is the way that you bring together a truth-telling around these topics and an inviting space.

And I have a bunch of questions related to that, but one is just, what's like the origin story there? Like, what in your experience in life has helped shape approach being available and prominent for you?

Mazin Jamal: Yeah. My mentor, Tony Moss, put it in a certain way that's really, um, held true for me, which is, uh, it's really all about consciousness evolution, which sounds super out there, but what it really means is, as humans, we are so creative. We have all this technology. We have all these solutions and systems and all these different ways that we can do things.

We've got all these environmental solutions. There's like 50 million books. Like we just followed the book, we could fix the economy, right? We have all the ideas, but we more or less like can't get along for a long enough period of time and cooperate effectively to make things happen. That's a big part of it.

And there are also people who are really stuck and are working really hard and very effectively and cooperatively towards keeping things the same or moving things in a direction that, you know, to them, they probably think it's for the best, but... We're all like, nah, that's not, that's not the only way. And you know, there, um, we can get into that later.

So, a big part of my inspiration in everything I do is... I did a lot of study in university around, um, different social movements. So I studied the Occupy Movement, I studied the Arab Spring, the Civil Rights Movement, and all the different... branches of the sixties and seventies movements.

I got to study under people who were doing that. I got to have conversations with Elaine Brown and Bobby Seale, former chairmen of the Black Panther Party. I got to talk to all these OGs, you know, and, um, was also, and have been a part of the revolution in Sudan. Um, you know, when I talk about Arab Springs studying, I mean, like I was talking to people who were like being tortured and like, you know, cause, cause, um, I had friends and connections in Egypt.

Where I'm going tomorrow, another story, but, um, all that study, right?

And I'm an activist at this time and I am so passionate, right? But I knew something was off and it really dawned on me when I discovered holistic health. And at SF State, there's this holistic health department and it's like, you walk in and it's just like tea, free tea.

And there's like all these different books everywhere and like musical instruments on the walls, like kind of like what my life is now. It was just like, what is going on? And, uh, in that I got to learn about traditional Chinese medicine and Ayurveda and meditation and indigenous, like Native American, uh, philosophies and all these different perspectives.

Uh, so I was just like, okay, we're out here burning out. And then before it was called cancel culture, just canceling each other. And like, we're talking about creating this better healing, loving world, but like, we are not able to, we don't have the tools and the skills and the capacity a lot of the time to embody that. And, um, over here, there's this like whole world of healing happening, but it's like mostly white people or it's like super ungrounded in like social change and these kinds of spiritual bypass.

And meanwhile, I'm an artist, you know, and I'm in all these bands and it's kind of the same thing as activist spaces where it's like a lot of substances, a lot of like staying up late and going hard, not really taking care of yourself. You know, and, um, all of that made me and a few of my friends feel like we need to bring these things together.

We need to bridge the creative, the arts, the activism and social change and the healing and the mindfulness and the self growth, self development. So, um, Holistic Underground was born. And, uh, has taken many twists and turns, uh, since then, but really that common thread is how do we bridge these three kind of spaces of change?

Because really those are the three places in my mind, you know, there's social change, which is focusing on the structure and the economics and the social stuff. There's the arts, which is really where cultural change comes from, right? And then healing and wellness and personal development. And that's like where we work on ourselves, and, um, each of them has a part of the puzzle, but none of them alone.

So Holistic Underground, we're holistic, bringing it all together. Underground, kind of like Underground Railroad. Like. You know, moving from movement to movement, trying to like bring people over to the, to the next way of thinking about things. So that's kind of the origin story of that.

[00:10:00] Levity in JEDI work: love and liberation

Jeremy Blanchard: Word. Yeah, I'm curious to build on this. Um, when you're bringing that mix of levity and truth telling to DEI, justice work, um, I'm curious if there's like a spiritual orientation or a mindset, something that you're grounding yourself in, that allows you to hold both when you're coaching or when you're doing the other, you know, training, consulting work. I'm curious if you can share a bit more about that.

Mazin Jamal: Yeah. One of the things that blew my mind the most when I was first having my awakening, I had my political awakening young because both of my parents were activists.

I was studying Chinese medicine, traditional Chinese medicine, and I was reading this book called Between Heaven and Earth. And it was these, like, two Americans who went there. They were some of the first people to study Chinese medicine in China. And they talked about the metaphor of, um, healing as like a mechanic and healing as a gardener.

And so the Western medicine approach is kind of like, all right, you know, you got the spinal column and the pelvic floor and the walls of the linings, you know, the intestines and all, everything's like a structure. It's like a building and it's like, Oh, your kidney is not working. Let's cut it out. Put in a new one. Oh, like this appendix. You don't really need that. Just cut it out. Like, oh, you're missing this thing, let's just give you like a chemical like pill that's going to like replace that. It's very much like you're like a broken car. What can we replace? What oils do we need to put inside? You know, and now you can keep you running.

And also like you don't take your car into the mechanic until it's broken. And you don't go in to see the doctor until you have some kind of symptoms until you're sick. So it's not really health care. It's like sick care.

Whereas the gardener, you know, as a gardener, you're always looking at like, what can I do to help this garden flourish? You don't wait until the plant is dying to water it. You you're just caring for it on a regular basis and you're, you're always supporting it to be more resilient.

So I really realized how our movements have that same, you know, issue of viewing it as broken, what's broken, how do I fix it? You know, this very surgical kind of, you know, um, unnatural in that it is not reflecting nature.

And, um, yeah, kind of unkind, you know, it's like no body, no plant, no system wants to be treated like a machine because it's not.

So when it comes to justice work, it's like, I'm, I'm very much like by any means necessary. And as far as I can tell, like the means that makes the most sense is love, like is, is compassion is like, that just works better.

Right. So it's, it's when people are in that intersection of speaking the truth to power, But also being grounded in love that they're the most dangerous to the system. And, um, Yeah. we're never going to out weapon the weapon people. We're never going to out hate the hate people. We're never going to out, you know, um, dehumanize the dehumanized, you know. That's their expertise. It's like an old sink to their level and then get beaten by experience.

So, yeah, Those are some of the big influences there. And it's just more fun for me. Like I can stay in it. You know, I have so many friends who are just like in that like energy and like they burn out and then they're out and then they're back and you know, so

Jeremy Blanchard: Yeah, yeah, so what I'm hearing in that is grounded in love, right? That there's

Mazin Jamal: love and liberation,

Jeremy Blanchard: Love and liberation.

Mazin Jamal: love and liberation. That's the name of our party in the forest, by the way. I'll come through. Um,

Jeremy Blanchard: That's right, that's right. So that's how, that's um, part of what you're holding when you're in a moment where you're Coaching somebody, right? And there's some like real talk that needs to be had. There's this like love and liberation being held side by side.

Mazin Jamal: Yeah. Exactly. Because it's like, okay. This person is, like, I love this person as a fellow human, and they are suffering due to this untruth that they are holding as true.

For example, this untruth called, we can continue on, uh, not addressing this and everything is going to be fine. Or, you know, our ancestral, you know, trauma is not at play here.

Or we, there's nothing to see here, nothing to look at, just keep going business as usual. That's creating suffering for you. And it's, it's hindering your ability to be liberated both internally, personally, spiritually, right? Because the truth will set you free, right?

But let me help you liberate, like, liberate yourself from this lie, you know, as, as someone who loves you, you know, as, as a beloved, you know, fellow human, rather than there's something wrong with you, you're broken and I need to fix you, you know, cause we all know how people respond to that. Well, at least I know how I respond to that, which is like, back the F up, you know?

[00:14:59] Helping groups stay regulated when looking at race

Jeremy Blanchard: Yeah. Cool. So to take that a little further, There's the way I've seen you do that in groups too, which I'm sure is coming from a very the same underlying orientation of love and liberation. But I've seen you, you know, you've facilitated groups that I've been a part of through looking at, , justice, looking at equity, looking at diversity, looking at inclusion.

And it's almost always the case that a group is gonna be at varying different levels of development and understanding and political analysis and internal work that they've done, to be available for a conversation like that. So there's, there's always, you know, you and I have both been in many rooms where there's some folks in the room who are really down for the cause and really pushing and really want to see more, um, move the group along in the direction of more justice. And there are folks in the room who haven't, don't know the, the language, haven't looked at the analysis of what's going on around race, around gender, around sexuality. And there's tension. There's conflict often.

And what I've seen you do in particular is like, have this way of like widening the space including the whole group and it, it, it shows up for me as Y'all, we got this. No sweat. No sweat. I know you have a vision.

I know you, we got this. You got this. Don't worry about it. Even when the whole room is like, you know, you can feel like kind of everyone's sort of tilting sideways like we're going to lose our center. Um, I'm curious to hear you say more about that. Like what's, what's, what's happening there? How do you, I think most people want that skill. Coaches, facilitators want that skill. What, how do you hold that? How do you think about that in groups?

Mazin Jamal: Yeah, you know, there's so many things happening at the same time there. Um, the first one is, Rarely does our best thinking when it comes to complex problems come from, like, fight or flight states.

So, you know, we both kind of have a similar training and when it comes to coaching. And one of the really important things I learned there is just about like the neuroscience of stress and how when we're stressed out, we're worried, we're concerned, you know, our body's trying to survive and take care of itself because our ancestors didn't have to deal with systemic change. They just had to deal with like lions, tigers, and bears for like the vast majority of humans evolution.

Uh, and then just like the last couple thousand years, just like boom, boom, boom, boom, complexity, right? Um, so I'm like, let's just not be dysregulated 'cause they're not gonna get anywhere.

Um, and also recognizing that like 99% of the time, at least one or two or three or people in the room are having a trauma response. And so let's stay regulated. It's like, here we are. Like I believe in us. If we're regulated and we are resourced, we can figure out the best possible, whatever's available in this room and in this moment.

So part of it is like keeping the group regulated. And part of that is one person in this space, like just reminding us like, Hey, we're, there's no actual tiger, lion, bear, like reminding your body. I'm not really even talking to you. I'm talking to your body, your nervous system. And I'm like, Hey, you're, when I say we're fine, we got this.

What I'm saying is like, you're not going to die. Like you're in your bedroom on a zoom call. Like you're not. You know what I mean? It's a future fear that, that energy is coming from. That's one part.

The second thing is that, um, this isn't actually a direct answer to your question, but it's important to note in my experience in working in movements, it's not actually usually the least, um, woke, kind of least political analysis, advanced person in the room.

That's like the problem, so to speak. Um, cause often. People who are really anti the thing, they're not usually in the room like our society is so segregated that like, it's really rare that someone who's like, no, actually, you know, I, I don't believe in saving children. And like, I think that climate change is a hoax.

Like, those people exist for sure. And I've often found that if they're in the space that I'm leading, And that all the like activist people are, they're like actually trying to grant change, like they're like kind of trying to, they're looking for leadership in a way. It's usually individuals who are, um, operating primarily from trauma response and from a good hearted place.

But it's like, they're kind of, um, Yeah. just have a lot of healing they need to do. And I've been there, you know. And, um, are trying to like work their stuff out in activism. Um, that's often where, like, I found the most issue, unfortunately. And it's sometimes the most generous, like, down for the cause, giving people.

But, like, as soon as you, like, say something that triggers, like, it's like, Oh, yeah, like, I smiled at a police officer. Like, what the fuck? Like, you smiled at a pig. Like, oh, pigs must... You know, just suddenly they go into this, like, space, you know.

So, um, a lot of the time, I'm just trying to keep everybody's nervous system stable enough for us to cooperate and come to, and like, have the conversation. Like, that, we just need to complete, let's like, get somewhere together.

So, yeah, keep, bring levity to move heavy things. It's all heavy, like the material is heavy enough itself. We don't need to make it harder.

Jeremy Blanchard: I love that quote right there. Bring levity to move heavy things.

Mazin Jamal: There you go.

Jeremy Blanchard: Put that on your

Mazin Jamal: Make it a t-shirt.

Jeremy Blanchard: Yeah, make it a t shirt.

Mazin Jamal: Mm

Jeremy Blanchard: Um, Yeah, so there's this piece about, it's like a tactical piece of like, alright, how am I holding the nervous system of everyone in the room and maybe like almost the collective nervous system of this group gathered here today because we're regulating together, right?

[00:21:16] Living the world we want to create now

Jeremy Blanchard: And then... I'm curious to hear a little bit more about the vision piece of that, at least when you've worked with me in a group setting like this before, would it be accurate to say that that's like an underlying perspective you're taking on the group? Like, this group cares about this, this group has a, like, I felt that from you.

Mazin Jamal: I think maybe this was you talk about the slingshot It's like that tension, right? It's like okay if someone thinks about what they want to think about where they're at that natural tension like brings any human being to like, okay. What do I do? Like I need to do like I want that I don't want this help, right?

The truth is you want something? Whether you want to want it or not, you want it. The truth is, this is the way things are. Whether you want it to be that way or not, it is. So these are the two kind of things of the slingshot. And you just send it off, you know?

Uh, so that's why I try to keep people on that as well. Keep them looking at, what's the vision? What's the goal? Right? Eyes on the prize.

Ultimately, you know, this is something I learned from the Taoist philosophy, right? As above, so below the fractal nature of things like, you know, how are you going to love anybody else if you don't love yourself? If we're not being the world we want to see while working to create the world we want to see, we're going to create the wrong world.

Yeah, so ultimately some aspect of this better world is we're all more or less getting along at some, like we can't keep warring, we can't keep hating each other and we're never all going to agree. Right.

And this is one of the things that I see on the far left now is this like, religious, evangelical, you know, everyone has to view the world the way that I view it. And it's like, it's just like, okay, now you're just preaching, you know, it's like, Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior, and if you don't believe in that, like, how, you know, that person believes that they're right, and so they're like, everyone has to, if everyone just believed in Jesus Christ, then everything would be fine, right?

And it's like, well, if everyone just believed that, you know, um, this, like, gender is a spectrum, and that, uh, racial, what do they call it, critical race theory, and like, all these things that, like, I believe in, personally, right? But I'm not gonna say that everyone has to believe it, cause as soon as you're trying to force it on someone, they're gonna reject it.

Um, you know, one of the things that I really enjoyed and benefited from a lot from, like, my spiritual teachers is how they convert you through example. Right? Like, you're like, dang, you got some... Really great sauce there. It's like, what's that about? Like, Oh, you know, I've been on this journey of just really, you know, uh, deconstructing masculinity and like finding who I really want to be.

And they're like, Oh, wow. You saying gender is a spectrum. Yeah, man. Like for me, at least like, I didn't want to have to be stuck in that box. I wanted to be able to be fluid. It's like, wow, maybe I want to be that. Right.

And so work with the willing. And so in every single one. instance of the work, my mindset is this moment, this interaction needs to look the way, it needs to be grounded in the values of what we're trying to create.

And if we can't get there fast enough in this meeting time, then we're not ready to take the next step. Like we need, we need to stay at this step as long as it takes. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast, because otherwise we'll rush, we'll get, and then the problem will bite us in the ass later. Which, it still happens for me all the time, like, you know, I learned from trial and error, is how I learned.

Jeremy Blanchard: Yeah, I love that. It makes me think about the book, uh, This is an Uprising, talking about how, uh, Gandhi thought about organizing, which the term was prefigurative organizing, that we have to, at least a part of what we're doing has to be living the world now that we're trying to create.

And just like you're saying, if we're If we're not, right, if we're doing it in a way that's burnt out, completely exhausting ourselves at all costs, you know, for the sake of the movement, uh, fully combative a hundred percent of the time, right, othering, um, where's that gonna get us, right? We, maybe we win a few policy victories, but in terms of our underlying, like, cultural way of being with one another, we are, we're still very far from the world we want.

Mazin Jamal: And I'm so glad you brought the word organizing, because I really view everything I do as community organizing, kind of, at the first and foremost.

And it's really hard, but it's like, how am I going to be out here? Like, Hey everyone, we deserve better. Like the life doesn't have to be this way. Like our children deserve better. The future generations deserve better. The earth deserves better. So let's make a better world. And I'm out here like burning out and not taking care of myself and not practicing kindness and compassion.

It's like, and they need to stop othering us and they need to stop, you know, telling us we're less than, and they need to like be nice to us. And then I'm over here like, you know, I'm going, well, this person doesn't deserve human dignity.

[00:26:16] Abolitionism and Redemption

Mazin Jamal: You know, um, another big one is like as an abolitionist, right? It's like, okay, if I believe that prisons are not working to reduce harm in the world.

You can't be an abolitionist and not believe in redemption. Because some of the people who are in prison did do bad things, did do things that you would not accept, right?

But there has to be some redemption possible. For those folks, there has to be some kind of like, okay, you're, you have a mental illness. You're unable to, you know, you're, you're not able to manage your trauma. But like, what's the difference between someone who was a drug dealer in their community? Cause that's how they thought they needed to survive. And someone who was born into some like crazy wealthy family and was like abused by their parents and like had to fit into this box of like being whatever, insert fancy last name here, you know? Both of them are, are kind of, were sick, grew up in a toxic environment, and then are living out their trauma.

And so, there needs to be a redemption. We can't kill all of them, and we can't kill all of them. Like, they have to exist on the earth, so like, what are we gonna do? Pragmatically, you know? Um, we have to heal. We have to be able to heal ourselves to heal others. And it's, it's, it's, it's harrowing, you know?

It's like, oh my god, what? I have to heal the sickest people on earth? Like, what am I gonna do, you know? But, um, the ingredients are simple. It's community, it's music, it's coming together, it's all of our indigenous wisdom and practices. It's, you know, good food and rest and care and a little bit of love.

I'll say one last thing here is just, I came to the United States after spending my early teens in Dubai in the Middle East. And, uh, yeah, I grew up in a very anti-semitic country, homophobic--it was illegal to be Jewish in that country. It was illegal to be gay in that country. Um, and, though like, it wasn't, it's not like, you know, the most sexist, it's not like Saudi Arabia level, like women can't drive or anything like that. But, um, definitely like, very, very old school gender norms. Um, so I come to the United States and I'm, I'm, I'm like super homophobic. And sexist and antisemitic. Like, I just didn't know any Jewish people. I didn't know any gay people.

I had all these friends who are from Lebanon and Palestine, and the only thing I know about Jewish people, basically, is like, that Israel is bombing their families and killing their cousins, you know. I'm like, oh, my friend's grandma was dropped, they dropped a bomb on her.

That's, they're like, yeah, that's what Jewish people do, right? That's how I grew up. Um, and it was coming back here, my cousins, you know, loving me out of it, you know, uh, and then I was, I was in a beautiful relationship with a Jewish woman. She was like Sephardic and Ashkenazi, like mixed and, um, loving her, you know, helped me heal the antisemitism. And having friends, you know, I had all these Jewish friends that are just like, yo, you're my homie. You know, actually my, my cousin, who's like my sister, she married a Jewish guy, right? And like, it was a whole, my whole family had a whole healing around it, right? And his as well. So, yeah, love is really the only thing that can heal the hate.

Like, they tried, you know, you know, drilling it out of me like, this is wrong, and you know, but that never, I was just defensive. Like, That I just got better at defending my beliefs. So

Sorry y'all I think I think love is the only way. Unfortunately, if you find another way if anyone, you know finds a better more effective way than love to heal backwards thinking just send me a message and let's talk.

[00:30:06] Making space for imperfection in our movement culture

Jeremy Blanchard: Yeah, that's, right that's right? yeah, I appreciate the vulnerability there. You know, I think that's one of the things I've also learned is the way in which we can use our own Like, where have I not been at my best? Let me, like, bring my full humanity forward. I do that in coaching whenever I can. Um, As an example of we're not trying to win the woke game.

Yeah

Right? And I'm not trying to hide these things that I used to believe. Right? Because now, in the moment you say that, someone has an invitation to say, Okay, right, my, uh, the guy who's helping me learn about justice is, oh, right, he's gone on a journey too.

Oh, okay, right. Oh, I wonder if there's, I wonder if there's more for me to learn here. Right? There's an opening in that moment.

Mazin Jamal: Yeah. it's okay to admit that we're not perfect, that we're human. That's kind of the goal there, is like, demonstrating that. And perfectionism is a trait of white supremacy, right? That's like, this society telling us that you have to be perfect. Um, Puritanism, right, was kind of rooted in that, and like, that's not against Puritans as a religious group, but like, Um, there's this aspect of any imperfection means that you're damned.

That I think really got into our society and it's, it's so in our movements, right?

Jeremy Blanchard: Yeah.

Mazin Jamal: Um, oh, my friend has this one belief that's different than me and I have to cancel them out of my life because now they're going to infect me, right? Um, with their sin.

Jeremy Blanchard: Yeah.

Mazin Jamal: Yeah.

Jeremy Blanchard: Yeah, well, that exact theme, I know that shows up for me personally too, uh, makes me think about belonging. Like, I know, uh, I worked with a coach recently and had this big insight around belonging that was seeing how I'd been caught in the, I'm a cis white dude, I've got some projects I want to do related to social change work, and I do not want to fuck it up, because if I fuck it up, I'm going to get cancelled. And so I'm sitting there and finding myself holding back and holding back and holding back and not bringing what I've got to bring forward.

And the, the coach I was working with, she said just one super simple thing. She said, yeah, it sounds like you're really wanting to like protect and take care of your belonging in these spaces. And I immediately started crying.

And was just like, oh, God, no one's ever put it that way before. Like, belonging's been this conceptual thing. We talk about belong, othering, and belonging, you know. At the moment, it was like, oh, right, yeah, my, like, I feel like my belonging is at risk. In that moment. Whether or not it's true, but that's how it feels.

Mazin Jamal: Thank you for sharing this story.

It's really, it's beautiful.

Jeremy Blanchard: And so, yeah, it makes me curious. I know a lot of what you do, all the work you do, kind of comes back to belonging. In, in one way or another, at least that's a big theme. Um, yeah, curious what you, how you think about that. Is there like a, a way that you ground belonging and something like, what that actually means outside of like a big concept?

Or how you approach maybe creating belonging, fostering belonging?

Mazin Jamal: Again, it's kind of coming back to like evolutionary psychology a little bit, like, if you didn't belong in the tribe, you probably weren't going to survive.

Jeremy Blanchard: That's right.

Mazin Jamal: You know, there's no, there's no surviving in this world in isolation. Even if all you do is eat other things, you need other things. Like, there's no living creature that lives in true isolation.

So it makes sense why we are so tribal, you know, and so for like, so afraid of challenging our group.

So I, I view belonging primarily as we're able to like be ourselves without needing to pretend wear a mask you can just be yourself authentically and um and kind of discover what that is cause we don't actually rarely do we fully know what that is and it's always changing. But, um, the energy that you spend pretending to be someone you're not, you can spend on discovering who you actually are.

Um, belonging is also about having a place in the picture, in the, in the project and the group, like, um, whenever I talk about inclusion, I talk, I break it down into belonging and purpose.

Jeremy Blanchard: Hm.

Mazin Jamal: Because, you know, I, I give this example a lot working with students like, um, I do a lot of university commencement speeches and stuff like that. And, um it's like if you go to a party and you don't know anyone, you feel super awkward, you don't belong, right? And then someone's like, hey, can you help me? Like make this salad? Right? Then you're like, okay, I have something to do, and you're not talking to that person about salad and like suddenly, you know, you have a purpose, you have a role.

And that actually is like the fastest way, like whenever I'm having an event and people come early and they don't know anyone and I see them being awkward, I'm like, hey, can you come help me wrap these cables? Like, oh, can you actually like, I just start giving them things to do and you just see them like brighten up, you know, it's like a job, like something to do, a purpose, like meaning, like reason to be here.

So how can we create so much belonging, such rich belonging, that there's room to challenge each other without fearing that we're going to be kicked out of the group? Like that's, I think, the best relationships I have where it's like, Our relationship is too strong for the truth to challenge it.

Mazin Jamal: So the truth is not unsafe.

Jeremy Blanchard: And that takes intentional investment in relationship, in belonging, in purpose, each person having, you know, their connection to purpose, to why they matter within the group. Um...

Sometimes that happens very organically. I know that's why I'm so invested in movement work, is because the people I organized with, led trainings with, did, um, movement work with, were some of the people I felt the most mattering, the most relationship with.

Mazin Jamal: I actually think that a lot of the people that reason that people keep going back to social activism work, even though it's burning them out is because of all the belonging and the experience there, right? It's like, we're all a part of this thing that's bigger than us. And, um, I think that honestly, like I love protesting as much as anyone, right? Like I enjoy the feeling of it, but you know, a lot, like. Sometimes it's really good, but largely it's, it's a galvanizing the movement. It's like, it's for us to be together and feel like I'm not alone and see, cause especially now the media just portrays what's happening. You know, they're going, whatever channel it's on is going to tell the story in a completely different way.

[00:37:06] Ancestor connection, energy shielding, finding your niche

Jeremy Blanchard: Yeah.

I'm curious to add in tactical suggestions that coaches could use if we were to get practical about some of this. I'm thinking. You know, maybe there's a few that you want to add in here, but I'm thinking in particular, I've heard you talk about, um, energetic cleansing when you're dealing with really heavy topics like this.

Like, what can the coach or facilitator or practitioner do to, like, kind of manage their own energetic space while they're working with traumas that are in the room, even if you're not a trauma healing practitioner, there's traumas up, um, while you're dealing with heavy topics. Um, curious, yeah, what you'd say about the energetic cleansing and if there's any other tactical, like what can people actually do to bring these justice principles into their coaching?

Mazin Jamal: The first thing that comes to mind is, um, developing a relationship with your own spirituality and particularly ancestors. Cause look, spirituality just means. That which is not material. Anything that exists beyond the material is spiritual. Literally, right? So, it doesn't need to be a religion, it doesn't need to be like, it's not a white dude in the sky, it's not what I'm talking about.

You know, um, it's like, the deep why. The deep, deep why. You know, and the mystery, and the questions, and the unknown. And, um, so there's spirituality as far as like what you believe in the faith and like that's good and helpful in a lot of ways, but then there's spirituality is like the practices. So whether that's meditation or dancing or singing or music or whatever it is that helps you connect and stay in that juicy space.

Um, so among the reason I say like connecting with your ancestors too is because ultimately like we're dealing with a It's a multigenerational challenge. It's like rooted in ancestral trauma and ancestral mistakes and ancestral conflicts. And it's the people who are going to benefit from it are like we're going to be their ancestors. It's like descendants seven generations from now and more.

So relating in that sense of lineage and from there, exploring what are the practices that my ancestors used to take care of themselves energetically?

So finding the lineages that you feel connection with and being in right relationship with them is key because you know, these plants that we use for energetic clearing, for example, right?

Like I talk a lot about, um, Clearing, but also shielding. I learned this from one of my teachers, April King. So you want to like cleanse the gunk out, but you also want to think about what are the things that give you a sense of shielding and protection. So that you can enter into spaces. And I say shield, not armor because armor, it's like a shield. You can easily put up and down armor. It's like, you're wearing it.

And like you're now you're not sensitive anymore. You can't, and you hug someone, you hurt them. It's very heavy. So, um, really thinking of it as shielding rather than arm armoring. And, um, for me, you know, every morning I use frankincense and myrrh because those are plants that my ancestors used. Um, it's also anyone who's Catholic, anyone's from East Africa, um, a lot of other parts of Africa, those are very common. Um, some people use rosemary as a shielder, as a protector. I use sandalwood. Cause that's what my ancestors used. Um, you know, a lot of people say that white sage is something not to use too much because it's kind of been over harvested, but they're, you know, sweet grass, you know, if you're of European heritage.

But the point here is just, um, you're doing it. It's like hygiene. It's like personal hygiene, right? Like if I don't brush my teeth and I go and kiss somebody, I'm exposing them to like all kinds of bacteria and germs, right?

So if I'm a coach and I don't clear my energy and I come in and bring people into my energy or I'm a leader, right? I'm now exposing them to things and in the process of doing that, you develop a sense of self attunement where you're just so much more aware of your own energy field, what's in your energy, what needs, you know, and it helps you take care of yourself better.

So that's one tactical thing. yeah.

The other thing that comes to mind is, like, if I had to like assign a task to all the coaches in the movement, I would say one, help people find their niche. Like if every single person found where they're, and this is, I call this the purpose place compass, if people want to text me or email me for the tool, but... what are my values? What are the experiences and challenges that have shaped me? What are my natural born gifts and, and, and strengths? And then what are the causes or issues in the world that really light me up for better and for worse, right? And the intersection of those things, what you value, what you just can't stand, what you, you know, what you experience growing up. This includes your race, your identity, your intersections. And then your, your skills, your natural gifts and privileges. Maybe it's things you were, you've inherited, a language, wealth, certain knowledge of how things work, a degree, that intersection, right? If we could help everyone find their niche.

The second is if we could help people not burn out while they do what they do.

And third, if we can help them find the balance between like enjoying life and the material comforts and safety, and then also being of service. Um, I feel like there's a lot of promise in that area that, um, yeah, a lot of us as coaches could explore what's my way of helping people find that.

Jeremy Blanchard: Yeah. I love that a lot. And, um, I think you're speaking to part of why this podcast and this intersection of coaching and social change, personal transformation and systemic transformation has so much juice for me is because I agree. Like, there's so like, if we can all find our place within service.

If we can all find our place in service to causes we care about, there's, uh, it's just so much more energy that is available, right? If we can show up fully to the things we care about in a way that does not burn us out, and right, we're showing up out of like deep care instead of out of obligation, then there's like a richness that shows up there because it's like, right, I'm fully in this.

I'm fully alive. I'm bringing, um, all of my, like, best qualities forward, more often than not. And, uh, right, it's like the net pool of energy that is then being put towards transforming the world is, like, full and rich and available.

Mazin Jamal: Right.

And, and and we enjoy it and we keep going. right. It's like, that's the other thing is like, you got it. You're going to be in this for decades. Decades. Like, you gotta, you gotta be sustainable. Like, you know, there's so many people I know, you know, in my family who were like such activists as young people.

And they're like, now they're just like, I just got to get my family to survive. And it's cause like, yeah, it, they were never supported to find a way to keep going. You know, it's like either, or either I'm in or I'm out, you know?

Jeremy Blanchard: And I think there's many ways to do that. And coaching has this obvious wealth of tools and techniques and practice around how do we help people find purpose? How do we help people do it in a sustainable way and not burn out?

How do we, um, you know, get, help them be in relationship, use their support networks?

Mazin Jamal: Yeah.

[00:44:49] Mazin's sources of nourishment

Jeremy Blanchard: Well, um, as we draw to a close here, the name of the podcast is Wider Roots and a nod toward redwood trees and the way they

Mazin Jamal: Yeah, I knew it. I was like, you are a redwood tree type of guy, man. just the redwood tree guy.

Jeremy Blanchard: And uh, you know, it's a nod towards nourishment. It's a nod towards interconnectedness. And um, so I'd love to hear what's been nourishing you. Like, are there sources of nourishment? Maybe it's a book, maybe it's poem, maybe it's, um, music. Um, that's been like your source of nourishment lately that you might want to recommend to folks.

Mazin Jamal: Oh I got you. Right now. Three stacks. André 3000 just dropped an album of like healing flute music. Fire. Fire. So good. Like I just been having it on repeat. Um, so that's one.

I have a practice of digital detox, and just not being plugged in as much, you know, it's a form of nourishment. It's like being bored. I like to try to force myself to be bored, like an hour a day every week.

Oh, there's a podcast called the Emerald that's really been lighting me up recently. Um, and I really love the perspectives that, uh, he brings like the mythic.

And, um, Khalil Gibran's, uh, The Prophet.

Jeremy Blanchard: Oh, so good. Yeah. I love the Emerald. I've only listened to a few episodes of it, but it's, uh, it's this mix of. Yeah, like read in this poetic, like, it's almost like I'm in a trance while listening to the podcast and there's music.

Mazin Jamal: It's like a spell. Yeah. It's just like a...

Jeremy Blanchard: yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's very cool. It's different than anything else I've encountered.

Mazin Jamal: And you know, one last thing I'll just say too is like, if people wanna check out my music,

Jeremy Blanchard: I was just gonna that's the next question.

Mazin Jamal: Yeah.

Hey man, I'm, I'm, a promote myself. You don't even gotta go. Where can they find me?

[00:46:45] Closing

Jeremy Blanchard: Yeah, where can folks connect with you, uh, for the JEDI stuff and then also would love to hear about the music too, where can, what's happening on the music front, where can folks find you there?

Mazin Jamal: Yeah. MazinJamal.com Um, so find, you know, slash music, but you can go and try to travel to the music page. I DJ, I do live music. I do a lot of very interactive performance. So, um, I, uh, minister weddings to license officiant. So happy to, to help you with those things. You know, I'll DJ, I'll minister wedding. I'll help you and your partner through like, I'll coach y'all through like, you know, what are, what's our vision for our partnership. I've been doing that for people. It's just so fun.

Around JEDI stuff, holisticunderground. org, and then there's a button called consulting, and that's like the little consulting part.

Jeremy Blanchard: Yeah.

Mazin Jamal: If you have a project where it is, um, you know, a social good project, it's around movement work, it's around healing, social change, community building, uh, health equity.

Uh, we have a fiscal sponsor that is, um, by and for, uh, you know, changemakers, BIPOC led. BIPOC centered, but um, allies welcome as well. So, that's the place where, we do it very differently than everyone else. It's like, we basically will handle all the money stuff for you. We handle all the, you know, compliance.

You don't need to have your own non profit. We actually provide coaching and training and all these other things for people as well. Um, and yeah, you can find it all over there.

Oh, one last thing, is uh, I do throw events. So, if you check out EmbraceCommunity.co You can also check out, um, this is like a BIPOC-centered community around spiritual innovation. So people who want to check that out, they're welcome to take a peep.

Jeremy Blanchard: And most of the in person stuff is, uh, in the Bay

Area,

Mazin Jamal: California. yeah, Oaktown.

Yeah.

Jeremy Blanchard: Mazin, thank you, buddy. Thanks for being here. This has been such an energizing conversation for me. So, so grateful for

Mazin Jamal: I'm ready to go I'd rather take the day on, you know? I'm just like, Let's go heal the world!

Jeremy Blanchard: Woo!

Mazin Jamal: Make it a better place. For you and for me and the entire human race. There are people dying, caring enough for the living. Make a better place for you and for me.

All right, that's all.

Jeremy Blanchard: That's right. That's the way to end this podcast. I love you so much. So grateful for you. Glad you're in my life. Thanks for being here and uh, rock on.

Mazin Jamal: Rock on brother. Peace.

Jeremy Blanchard: Thank you so much for listening.

Check out the show notes for links to the resources that Mazin mentioned and other ways that you can connect with him.

Episode three comes out in two weeks with anti-racist facilitator and somatic coach Dara Silverman.

Dara Silverman: It feels so special when we get to be with other coaches who are politicized of like, Oh, I get to actually like be in these questions about like, what are the contradictions that I'm feeling in this moment? Working with clients who don't share my politics.

What does it mean to like be with a white person when they say something racist in a session?

Jeremy Blanchard: So make sure you subscribe in your podcast app of choice so that you can catch that episode and all the future ones.

And if you'd like to tap into the resources I've collected at this intersection of personal and systemic transformation, you can head over to WiderRoots.com to sign up for the newsletter.

If you have any ideas for topics you'd like us to cover on the show, you can email me at podcast@widerroots.com. And you can follow the podcast on Instagram at wider roots pod.

Thanks to Wildchoir for the theme music for this show, you're currently listening to their song, Remember Me, which will play us out.

And a fun little piece of trivia is that Mazin was actually in Wildchoir for a long time. So enjoy this track.

See ya next time.